tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525941472055852858.post521790429655094469..comments2023-11-17T08:51:06.601+00:00Comments on EBU Internationals Blog: Open Team for the 2012 European ChampionshipsEBUhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05012492040340807726noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525941472055852858.post-22898266737343528532012-01-25T15:09:32.974+00:002012-01-25T15:09:32.974+00:00Play up England, Play up England!!! Good luck guys...Play up England, Play up England!!! Good luck guys!Mr Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525941472055852858.post-84130314841928319882012-01-25T14:47:50.697+00:002012-01-25T14:47:50.697+00:00Guys, debating selectorial procedure isn't rea...Guys, debating selectorial procedure isn't really appropriate for these blog comments so I think I'll put a stop to this now. If you have any further queries they can be addressed to the secretary of the Selection Committee.<br /><br />Messages of support for the team are still more than welcome of course!EBUhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05012492040340807726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525941472055852858.post-59183049342474934062012-01-25T14:27:48.703+00:002012-01-25T14:27:48.703+00:00Wherever I have used the word "Butlers",...Wherever I have used the word "Butlers", pretend that I wrote "cross-IMP scores".<br /><br />As I said, using cross-IMPs from a team event as a measure of performance is flawed because it doesn't take account of decisions about lineup. It's quite common for the two strongest pairs to pick each other, thereby artificially deflating their own cross-IMP scores.<br /><br />Another problem (which I haven't not mentioned before) is that a team may have been in need of IMPs, and therefore have adopted a swingy approach. By pursuing their best chance of winning the actual event, the pairs may damage their own Butlers.<br /><br />Imagine a pair, with one match to go, having a high cross-IMP score, but with their team lying in second place and needing a big win. Should they play aggressively because that's what the team needs, or play their normal game in order to improve their chances of an England slot? It would be iniquitous to put anyone in that position.Andy Bowlesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525941472055852858.post-26364488079070163562012-01-25T13:59:28.330+00:002012-01-25T13:59:28.330+00:00Sorry Andy, I see no mention of X-imps in that par...Sorry Andy, I see no mention of X-imps in that paragraph :(Eric Picklesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525941472055852858.post-73740222659990026682012-01-25T13:56:41.680+00:002012-01-25T13:56:41.680+00:00"Most players treat the Butlers as a bit of h..."Most players treat the Butlers as a bit of harmless fun"??? Why does that make them invalid then?Eric Picklesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525941472055852858.post-5077293581918635472012-01-25T13:21:24.152+00:002012-01-25T13:21:24.152+00:00Nick just mentioned that the selected pairs did we...Nick just mentioned that the selected pairs did well in the butlers, he didn't say they were used as the method of selection. He also mentioned all the successes of the selected pairs in a number of events, I would think that these successes, rather than the butlers, were the primary factors in their choice.David Mullernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525941472055852858.post-68811594665321259002012-01-25T12:51:29.676+00:002012-01-25T12:51:29.676+00:00Thanks to Nick for a little insight into the team ...Thanks to Nick for a little insight into the team selection. I wish the team success, and the luck when they need it.David Mullernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525941472055852858.post-69548138094009898742012-01-25T12:38:02.045+00:002012-01-25T12:38:02.045+00:00I'm not going to repeat what I've already ...I'm not going to repeat what I've already said. You'll find the reason why I don't believe them to be an objective measure in the second paragraph of my first comment.Andy Bowlesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525941472055852858.post-35849845016772177542012-01-25T12:19:40.012+00:002012-01-25T12:19:40.012+00:00Why leave it to a subjective selection committee w...Why leave it to a subjective selection committee when x-imps can tell you objectively which pairs to select?Eric Picklesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525941472055852858.post-10608075081631733332012-01-25T12:10:39.099+00:002012-01-25T12:10:39.099+00:00To clarify, the metric commonly referred to as &qu...To clarify, the metric commonly referred to as "the Butlers" is, in fact, produced by cross-imping. It would be an excellent way to score an IMP pairs event.<br />I don't have any quibble with the way that these figures are calculated, but only with the use to which they may be being put.Andy Bowlesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525941472055852858.post-35908298131084966922012-01-25T11:56:05.520+00:002012-01-25T11:56:05.520+00:00LikeLikeCoopernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525941472055852858.post-63235462287756054922012-01-25T11:50:24.692+00:002012-01-25T11:50:24.692+00:00But they did get to play quite a few sets against ...But they did get to play quite a few sets against Townsend.Coopernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525941472055852858.post-15325349862363974922012-01-25T11:47:18.698+00:002012-01-25T11:47:18.698+00:00No problem, it is 8 years out of date, the photo m...No problem, it is 8 years out of date, the photo more like 10! Perhaps I should update it!David Goldnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525941472055852858.post-59543478527357349322012-01-25T11:45:33.427+00:002012-01-25T11:45:33.427+00:00Reference to Butlers is a bit over the top I agree...Reference to Butlers is a bit over the top I agree. Note that in the Premier League team Allfrey was the only team which played no sets against Teltscher/Silverstone who were bottom of the butlers. It actually makes their victory and butler scores even more impressive...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525941472055852858.post-55854615441246816562012-01-25T11:39:15.841+00:002012-01-25T11:39:15.841+00:00David B - that really is a profound quotation. I a...David B - that really is a profound quotation. I am sure the team will take it forward and use it wisely.Graemenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525941472055852858.post-17067675009233203882012-01-25T11:37:42.098+00:002012-01-25T11:37:42.098+00:00Or as the great philosopher Martina Navratilova on...Or as the great philosopher Martina Navratilova once said: “Just go out there and do what you've got to do”Graeme Rnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525941472055852858.post-50580644977015600752012-01-25T11:29:45.683+00:002012-01-25T11:29:45.683+00:00Remember, our greatest glory is not in never falli...Remember, our greatest glory is not in never falling....but in getting up every time we do.David Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525941472055852858.post-13896039273592956822012-01-25T11:23:24.741+00:002012-01-25T11:23:24.741+00:00Congratulations to everyone selected! I believe in...Congratulations to everyone selected! I believe in you!Tim Tebownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525941472055852858.post-77386849028920086352012-01-25T10:54:50.959+00:002012-01-25T10:54:50.959+00:00Completely agree with Andy Bowles' sentiments ...Completely agree with Andy Bowles' sentiments - bizarre that the selection committee does not ask for x-imps to be used instead of butler scoring...Eric Picklesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525941472055852858.post-33536606364051416262012-01-25T09:33:50.078+00:002012-01-25T09:33:50.078+00:00I find the repeated references to Butlers in this ...I find the repeated references to Butlers in this article a little disconcerting. Is that an indication that the selectors regard the Butlers as an important factor in making selection decisions?<br /><br />Butlers in a team event are fundamentally flawed as a measure of performance, because they don't take account of the choices that teams make about lineup. Most players treat the Butlers as a bit of harmless fun, or just an irrelevance. <br /><br />Using the Butlers for selection purposes is potentially quite destructive. As soon as you start using the Butlers for something important, you create conflicting objectives: a pair hoping for selection has an incentive to pick the easier opponents, which will often not be in the best interest of the team.<br /><br />That's not a comment on the actual selections made. The players chosen have had many excellent results over the past few years. I doubt, however, that any of them would list "topping the Butlers" amongst their proudest achievements.Andy Bowlesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525941472055852858.post-21361103853429820342012-01-24T18:22:35.517+00:002012-01-24T18:22:35.517+00:00LikeLikeKennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525941472055852858.post-55000242869257810902012-01-24T17:31:16.186+00:002012-01-24T17:31:16.186+00:00Sorry, David - I was relying on the biography of y...Sorry, David - I was relying on the biography of you that appears elsewhere on these EBU pages. We will try to update that. NickGoalhangerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13024908676098875828noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525941472055852858.post-52049493524176954392012-01-24T15:31:03.583+00:002012-01-24T15:31:03.583+00:00It has been a long time since I ran the St John...It has been a long time since I ran the St John's Wood bridge club!David Goldnoreply@blogger.com